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  1. #1
    Inactive Member R13's Avatar
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    Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    Just thought this was interesting.




    At a time when the state is bleeding cash and resources and facing record unemployment, seems at least one Michigan lawmaker is still finding the time to fan the flames of the pointless "culture wars" that political hacks turn to when they lack real answers to our real problems. State senator Michelle McManus, a Republican from Lake Leelanau, Mich., who's also running for Secretary of State, has introduced legislation designed to force more people to stay in broken marriages by eliminating Michigan's "no fault" divorce statute, which makes it easier for spouses to part.

    Since 1972 Michigan's ?no fault? divorce law has required only that one spouse say ?there has been a breakdown of the marriage relationship to the extent that the objects of matrimony have been destroyed and there remains no reasonable likelihood that the marriage can be preserved.?Under the McManus bill those seeking divorce would be required to allege specific problems such as adultery, physical abuse, imprisonment, physical incompetence at time of marriage, or that a spouse had sex with an animal or dead human body.

    The person accused of wrongdoing in the marriage would then have a chance to agree to the charges or deny them and a court would make a determination as to their validity.

    Veronica LaDuke, spokeswoman for McManus, said that the Senator decided to introduce the bill because she was asked to do so by Mike McManus (no relation), president of the DC-area based Christian ministry called group Marriage Savers.

    Ugh.

    This is annoying on so many fronts. First off, yet again, we're forced to witness the scary implications of what happens when religious fundamentalists attempt to impose their brand of morality on the rest of us, via the law. (And here you thought it was just Detroit's stripper-scolding, fat cat "bishop-ocracy" that wants to play American Taliban.)

    Secondly, even a cursory understanding of why the law was enacted in the first place tells you why it's a sensible idea. Before "no fault" divorce, people were often forced to air all of their dirty laundry in divorce court, generating even more hostility and animosity in the proceedings. And when there wasn't enough dirty laundry, people made stuff up, spinning fictional horror stories about abuse and infidelity just so they could get on with their lives.

    And even when they couldn't get the divorce, people split anyway, creating all sorts of thorny entanglements around issues of child support and the division of property.

    Finally, the state decided that it made more sense to just let consenting adults move on, without all the court-appointed drama.

    But now Michelle and Mike McManus and their "pro-family" buddies are trying to drag us back 38 years in one fell swoop. Their reasons are, for the most part, the standard conservative cliches about any law or social program they hate, arguing that "no fault" divorces breed "irresponsibility." But they do manage to get at least a little more inventive this time around, contending that divorce is also an economic problem that has thrust Michigan into decline.

    Though most people blame the sad state of Michigan's economy on the decline of the auto industry, McManus claims that the prevalence of divorce in Michigan is a major factor.

    ?Only married people can create new businesses. It takes one couple living under one roof to generate enough income to set off in business on your own.?

    Plus, he said, because divorced women and their children are more likely to be poor, divorce results in increased need for Medicaid and housing subsidies.

    And we all know how much many of our far-right Christian countrymen just love the idea of the government giving poor people anything.

    Seriously, though, I'm not suggesting that marriage isn't important and that it doesn't take real work. As a married man, I know that when that work yields the dividends of a lasting bond, it can be beautiful for all involved. But the reality is that far too many marriages don't work, for any number of reasons. And in most instances, they aren't going to work just because some ministers who yield undue sway over narrow-minded politicians want that reality to be otherwise.

    Moreover, at such a dire time for our state, I find it disheartening that the "culture warriors" are worming out of the woodwork again with these silly attempts to top each other -- and wedge voters -- with legislative kookiness. First it's this state rep Paul Scott, another GOP Secretary of State candidate (what is it with the SOS race anyway?), who has decided to make attacks on transgendered Michiganians central to his publicity machine. And now it's Michelle McManus and her bill kowtowing to these so-called "pro-family" mullahs.

    Despite the solid track record that "culture warriors" have when it comes to dividing voters, I think these sort of efforts are likely too obvious and too nutty to work by themselves. But with the governor's race still taking shape, they signal a fundamental shift in the rhetoric we may be hearing in coming months. Sadly, at a time when we need leadership on both sides of the aisles willing to wage substantive battles on our behalf, it looks like we are destined to keep getting people who'd still rather take half-hearted stabs at windmills.

    Read more: A War on Divorce? - The Detroit Blog - TIME.com

  2. #2
    Inactive Member AdHominem's Avatar
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    Re: Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    Religious Fundamentalist
    American Taliban
    "pro-family" mullahs

    I'm surprised you didn't pull the Nazi card?

    So, if a man can file for divorce for no reason OR any reason, and the woman and kids are left poorer because of that...that's a good thing? right?

    ON the FLIP SIDE: if a woman can file for divorce and she gets the children and he loses his children...that's a good thing? right?

    "And even when they couldn't get the divorce, people split anyway, creating all sorts of thorny entanglements around issues of child support and the division of property"

    yeah we wouldn't want to protect parental rights or property rights with thorny entanglements would we? That's so Old Testament. I'd personally rather cheat and deceive my spouse out of parental and property rights in a "no fault" way. That's so much better for everyone, especially the children.

    Legislative kookiness: It didn't seem to be kookiness for a couple hundred years leading up to 1972. Maybe the "no fault" legislation was the kookiness here. Maybe leading up to 1972 the divorce rate was increasing because because didn't care about sexual fidelity anymore (Think, the '60s). So maybe the pressure on the courts was needlessly increasing because marriages were failing due to greater levels of (dare I say) irresponsibility or immorality (shudder at such a Talibanic word).

    And the courts said, "Help, we're sinking under the mire of weight of irresponsible lawsuits by uncommitted marriage partners. give us a no-fault plan!" And, so, here we are today.

    Disclaimer: I'm neither an attorney, the son of a lawyer, or connected to Marriage Savers (as if that's an automatic disqualifier for discussing marriage-based issues. but apparently here, on this forum, it is.)

  3. #3
    Inactive Member Biggin's Avatar
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    Re: Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    so you think its okay for a religious based group to have the power to change laws that affect everyone?

    thats the biggest problem with these religious groups, they cant be happy just living by these laws themselves, using their views to dictate their own lives, they are only happy trying to make everyone fall in line with their views.
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    Inactive Member AdHominem's Avatar
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    Re: Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    So, which groups don't have the power in America to influence laws? Are you saying (or even suggesting) that only non-religious groups have the power to influence the laws we live by? How is Ms. McManus, influenced by Marriage Savers different from Ms. Granholm being influenced by any of her constituent groups, or even a DC lobby?

    I mean, I don't like the abuses any more than you, but it is the way the Constitution set things up. Citizens become lawmakers and bring their convictions (religious or non-religious) to the table. And many of those lawmakers are elected explicitly because of their convictions which represent a large portion of their constituency. If you don't want Christians influencing government, you need to make a law that says so. That's the American way.

    If you wan't to deal with the issue of marriage law and divorce law and those ramifications, then let's have at it. But don't sit there and say religious people don't get a seat at the table.

  5. #5
    Inactive Member Biggin's Avatar
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    Re: Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdHominem View Post
    So, which groups don't have the power in America to influence laws? Are you saying (or even suggesting) that only non-religious groups have the power to influence the laws we live by? How is Ms. McManus, influenced by Marriage Savers different from Ms. Granholm being influenced by any of her constituent groups, or even a DC lobby?

    I mean, I don't like the abuses any more than you, but it is the way the Constitution set things up. Citizens become lawmakers and bring their convictions (religious or non-religious) to the table. And many of those lawmakers are elected explicitly because of their convictions which represent a large portion of their constituency. If you don't want Christians influencing government, you need to make a law that says so. That's the American way.

    If you wan't to deal with the issue of marriage law and divorce law and those ramifications, then let's have at it. But don't sit there and say religious people don't get a seat at the table.
    see, now we are getting at a whole new can of worms.
    i feel personally that NO religion should be allowed in politics. Its absurd to me that even though many in this country are not even religious, we still have to deal with religious groups having such a profound influence on all politics.

    Politics are for doing whats right for the people as a whole. And when let individual religious groups influence lawmaking like they do, then its politics with a side of religion, which is ridiculous if you ask me.

    Its not just Christianity or Judaism, its all religious groups who seek to dictate legislature based on personal religious beliefs.

    When every single person in a country is the same religion, then its okay to use religious doctrine to influence legislature, if not, then its not fair to hold everyone to the same spiritual standards.
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    Inactive Member R13's Avatar
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    Re: Who agrees with this "War on divorce"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggin View Post
    so you think its okay for a religious based group to have the power to change laws that affect everyone?

    thats the biggest problem with these religious groups, they cant be happy just living by these laws themselves, using their views to dictate their own lives, they are only happy trying to make everyone fall in line with their views.

    And don't you think that those who don't support this for those reasons, shouldn't support any interference in other instances where the religious dictate marriage? I do.

    Marriage has never really been taken serious, it's funny that it suddenly is here and there to oppose what others do that they don't agree with.

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